Journeys of Healing: Wolfgang

In this episode of PIR® Integration Radio, Wolfgang shares a deeply moving account of recovery, resilience, and the lifelong journey of healing from trauma.

With honesty, humility, and remarkable courage, Wolfgang reflects on a life shaped by early adversity, addiction, severe physical health challenges, and profound emotional suffering. He speaks openly about his experiences with recovery, mental health treatment, and the ways psychedelic-assisted healing helped him access parts of himself that years of conventional approaches could not fully reach.

Throughout the conversation, Wolfgang emphasizes that healing is not found in psychedelic experiences alone, but in the ongoing practice of integration—the daily work of understanding, accepting, and caring for ourselves. From reconnecting with his inner child to learning to meet life with greater acceptance and compassion, he shares insights gained through both hardship and recovery.

Together, we explore the relationship between trauma and addiction, the role of psychedelics in supporting emotional healing, the importance of community and fellowship, and the emerging future of psychedelic-assisted therapy.

This episode offers a powerful reminder that recovery is not about becoming someone new—it is about rediscovering who we have always been beneath the layers of pain, fear, and survival.

  PIR® Integration Radio is a podcast produced by Psychedelics in Recovery.
In keeping with PIR® traditions, the podcast offers a space for reflection, shared experience, and integration, in support of recovery. It does not promote or endorse substance use. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:55

So that's a great idea. And story of recovery and discovery of psychedelics with us. Welcome, both guys. Thank you for being with us.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yeah, welcome. And first of all, I really want to thank you for this beautiful introduction, you know, and also for the for the invitation. And I hope that I can I can be somehow of service.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

I'm sure you will you will be. I heard a bit of your story by listening to your test on a regular Wednesday meeting. But I look forward to hearing how it all started. If you can tell us a little bit about what to do to recovery when what were the circumstances in describing recovery before psychedelics, and then we'll see if you can tell us a bit more about how you met, um, how you encountered PIR and psychedelics afterwards.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Okay, I I will try, you know, beautiful question, but there's one problem because uh I was actually born in 1950, which um you know makes it a very, very long story because I'm 76 now. And so I have to like compress a little bit. And uh, you know, but to start with the start, uh before I ever heard anything about like um addiction or problems or whatever, my life was um was quite uh I I felt it's quite normal until I was committed to a to a mental hospital when I was six years old, which uh I have hardly any any recollection. I only remember um that they told me that I had some kind of problems with my aggressions and uh and then I have a blackout. So this is how all started. Nowadays, you know, uh yeah, mental doctors they would say like that's a traumatic situation, a two-year blackout, and blah, blah, blah. I was medicated at the time. There probably was a lot of uh circumstances like abuse and stuff, you know. So this is how my life started. And when I came back to my family, I was always an alien, you know. It was a nice family, you know. My parents were like survivors of the Second World War, which it's hardly to imagine, you know, but it was like shortly after the Second World War. So everybody was traumatized, maximum, and so on, you know. So when I was like 13 or 14 years old, um I was heavily stuttering. Uh, I was an outcast in school, I was uh quite quite good in school. I was singing in a choir in the opera, which was basically my life, and I was I was stuttering like hell, so I could not really say anything. I was very shy. And then a doctor prescribed uh some medication, which nowadays you would call it like speed, and uh I started to take ion ions, and uh and all of a sudden I was able to approach girls at parties and they're like, Do you want to dance with me? And from this moment on I knew that I have to take this medication till the end of my days, because it was the only possibility to be like a normal human being. And uh it was the it was the 60s, you know, and uh and even like it was a normal thing, you know, to be involved in drugs and pop music. Uh and when I found out that there are even uh stronger uh medications and that it was kind of attractive, even, you know, because all the people I adored, all the musicians I loved, you know, be Jimi Hendrix or the Stones or whatever, everybody was taking drugs. So I thought, like, wow, you know, this is a solution, you know. I can use, uh I can be somebody that is a drug addict, which was cool, you know, and I can have a life. And uh I started very early to have a career in the movie business. I became a DOP using, which was absolutely okay at the time, you know. I was running around with a silk scarf, you know, that signaled I'm a heroin addict, you know, because we we used the scarf. Anyway, so this was the late 60s. My first detox was in 1969 and I was 19 years old. And I thought that's like graduation, you know. Now I have it uh written. Um I'm I'm I'm officially a drug addict, you know. And uh to make a long story uh very short, you know, was from then on, I had a lot of times in mental hospitals and jails, you know. Until 77, I spent basically most of the time in institutions. I didn't know anything else, I was not expecting anything. I thought like this is I didn't think anything. I was just living the thing. There was no talk about recovery or like 12-star programs. There was AA somewhere, you know, but I I I didn't feel like I'm an alcoholic, so I'm not supposed to be there. And uh through a lot of coincidences, uh which make a nice movie script, but it's too long for a podcast. Through a lot of coincidences, I was forced more or less to be clean for the first time in my life, and this was in 78, 1978. I was 28 years old. And uh sorry to say, but it had nothing to do with 12-step programs. I just ended up in a situation where I was actually forced violently to not use. And for the first time, you know, I was on an island in the Mediterranean, Corsica, and uh I didn't even know where I am, you know. Somebody had like, yeah, that's the too long story. Anyway, I got clean for the first time, and I went swimming for the first time, you know, since years. And in the water I had like a feeling of maybe I I could do this another two or three months, you know, maybe I can give it a try. My weight was about like 54 kilos, you know. I was like, I had a French nickname, Le Clou. It means like a nail, a nail, you know. I was like, I was not existing. But I started to work and I started to like in a holiday camp, you know, as a handyman, and uh and somebody offered me a job uh for the next season, and I became a windsurf teacher in 1978. This was crazy. I was chain smoking, you know, full of needle scars and teaching teaching French tourists how to windsurf. And um, it was just crazy. Anyway, so I mentioned this because you know, this was how I thought it's going. You know, I'm gonna like relapse once or twice a year, that's the price I have to pay, and then I'm I'm gonna try, you know, maybe I can make it a year or maybe two. I have no idea about 12-step programs, but I read a lot of stuff. I had a lot of experience with institutional treatment at the time, which was bad, just to say mildly. You know, there was no knowledge about addiction or something. You just got incarcerated and they cleaned you up, and then you had some behavioral therapy, whatever. So for the next 11 years, I I tried to stay clean. I relapsed once or twice a year. I had mental problems like hell, anxiety attacks, depression, panic attacks, which I kind of thought that it belongs to my life. You know, it has been before using, so probably it's going to be after using. And I tried to change circumstances. You know, I was living in the Caribbean for some time on a little island, is isolated. I went back to Paris because I thought like I need to be in the movie business again. I started my own production company, I made money, I had a duplex apartment on the Rousseau 17. I was more in Paris. This means I was I was rich. And uh, but I was not clean. And this was actually in 89 that I gave up completely because I was like talking to a medical doctor at the time, and he said, like the doses that I have to prescribe you in downers in medication kills a horse. So this is the price that you pay that you don't relapse. And I was like, Yeah, but that's like that's paradox. I'm using medication to not relapse, you know, I'm using drugs to not relapse, you know. And that was the first time, and and he he was reading the thing to me. He said, Like, this is really too much. And I said, but what can I do? And he said, I have no idea. I'm gonna go down to the bar and I'm gonna have a red wine. You know, it was in Paris. Um, and I would suggest that you go to a meeting. Honestly, you know, it was a very, very expensive psychotherapist. So I thought, like, okay, idiot, you know, I'm gonna do this. And I went to my first NA meeting, and and somebody said, You're not clean, you should do a detox. And I went with my Armani suit and my suitcase. I went to a hospital and said, like, for the first time in my life, after spending years in institution, it was the first time that I went on my own free will, and I said, like, hello, I need to detox, you know. On mother's little helpers, not even heroin. I hadn't touched opiates in 11 fucking years. Anyway, so I ended up uh in NA, and I got clean on the 1st of May in 1989, which makes it now 36 years. And I was very, very grateful. But I was aware at the time, I was not I didn't have this pink cloud that many people share about uh 12-step programs, and everything's gonna be fine. I was prepared that staying clean is not solving my problems. That was clear, you know. And I thought uh, you know, everything else, you know, all the stuff that they told me, you know, don't use, don't go to places where you have been using. Um, I was not interested in, quite honestly, you know, but two things. Obviously, were the two things that I did not want to confront. It was fellowship, hanging out with this strange uh spiritual addicts, you know, and spirituality. All this 11-step stuff, you know, so like it's not my thing. So I knew these are the two things that I have to confront, I have to do. I went to a meeting every fucking day, making sure that nobody realizes that I'm a newcomer. Uh, it was kind of easy because I had moved to New York, you know, so I had like hundreds and hundreds of meetings, and I stayed clean, and my mental problems uh started to reappear in a brutal way. All the anxiety attacks, all the panic attacks, you know, I became what they called a uh a uh, they called it a heart neurosis at the time. This is a psychosomatic problem. I just had like uh heart attacks, panic attacks, you know. I was hospitalized a few times, you know, they gave me injections to prepare me for the operation, then the heart attack was gone. So it was kind of clear that I have a psychosomatic problem, you know. But working the steps did not solve the problem. Now, to make another time jump, you know, I did a lot of service NNA, I did international service, I was a PR and medical conferences, and I read shitloads of books. I also read a lot about from Stanislav Croft. And I knew somehow in the back of my mind, also with my experience of my drug use in the 60s and 70s, I knew somehow that psychedelics are opening a door. I had experienced it. I was not interested in psychedelics, you know, when I was using, because my using was like, I have to shut down, I have to forget. I didn't want to open up to any universe, you know, but I had the experience because I was a hippie drug addict, so I was using a lot of LSD 25. And it rang a bell. I thought like, maybe, you know, with all my meditation, and I spent times in Buddhist monasteries and in Catholic monasteries and meditating my ass off, you know. And I knew somehow, maybe in two or three incarnations, you know, I can maybe solve the problem of my trauma. But, you know, I I don't have the time for two incarnations, you know. And then I heard this stuff, you know, by Francoise Broursat, you know, by Marjorie Paulin, he came much later, you know, and I started to think maybe this would be a solution. And then while I was like reading this stuff, not being able to approach it because it would have been a relapse, uh, I um how can I make this short? Uh I um um I had a brain tumor. Uh it was 14 years ago, and I was hospitalized, and they told me I have um I have another five days, and my chances of survival because it was at the stem, you know, at the brain. So it uh they had to operate in in the dark. And uh and the team told me quite honestly that my chances, you know, of uh being woken up with a little bit of like ability to still think and talk and walk is like one to seven, which is not very good, you know. No, it's not. No, it's not very good. It was brutal, you know. So I had five days to concentrate, and um and it was a very important moment for me, you know, because all of a sudden I thought the fucking program works. Because I was uh I had a I I had I had the allowance from my surgery, from my surgery team. They said, like, listen, you are the drug addict. I told them that I'm a drug addict, it's important for the anasthesia. And they said, like, listen, you know, we the only thing that we want you to do is not go crazy. So please, you know, prepare for the operation somehow. But you are the specialist, you know, we just open the door, you know, you can ask for anything you need to calm down. And I thought, like, wow, that's great. You know, I'm gonna like blah, blah, blah, I'm flipped out, you know, I'm gonna use this and this and that. And I had these ideas, and every night, you know, I do remember the first night, you know, I was there. I thought, like, I'm gonna call the night nurse and I'm gonna like take Phantom Villa, I'm gonna have to take this, you know, I have to calm down. And then I thought, like, fuck, you know, if I take this stuff, you know, I wake up tomorrow morning, I can't remember but my stupid pin coat, you know, that I have to give to my to my wife's girlfriend, whatever you want to call her, you know. So maybe I'm not using it. I can do it tomorrow. Quite honestly, it was not like the spiritual awakening, you know, and I want to be clean or whatever. I didn't want to be clean. I just yeah. Uh anyway, I survived it. But everybody told me afterwards, you know, this is adding to your trauma. So, Mr. W, you really have to do something. This is not gonna go well because you are like your system is uh is slowly regenerating, and I have to learn to speak again, which is a kind of a miracle if you listen to me now, you know. Stuttering and brain tumor, you know, I was like, oh, like after stroke, I had to relearn walking, I had to relearn talking. But I I was traumatized, you know, my physical system was traumatized. And I heard ongoing, you know, from the therapists also in the rehab when I was like reworking, they said you have to do something. But maybe um the conventional therapy is not really working with you. So I tried, you know, behavioral therapy. Quite honestly, it was not really working, it was nice, you know, nice contact, nice blah, blah, blah. But so the question came closer, and then coincidences. We all know, you know, I met somebody in the underground scene because there was no legal way to use psychedelics at the time. You know, I actually met somebody in the underground scene scene. It was a psychotherapist that works with mushrooms, and we had talks, you know, and uh he said, Listen, you know, uh, if you want to try, I can guide you. You do the preparation with your therapist. And uh at the same time, we uh which is published in an aid, this one uh pamphlet, um some of you might know it, about uh medication in in recovery, you know, and it says very clearly, you know, it's a pamphlet which is typically NA stupid but very North American, you know, but it says very clearly if you have a medical issue, if you have a mental issue, and you have a prescription, uh get a second opinion. But if two uh specialists tell you to take a certain medication, you are clean. And I was like, wait a second, if psychedelics would be legal and I would have all the preparation and the set and setting in a therapeutic uh circumstance, then this could maybe be helping me with my fucking problems. I didn't want to talk to God or the universe or get my ego dissolved or whatever. I just wanted to get rid of my anxiety attacks. And I did this one session and it was kind of okay. Sorry to interrupt here. Was that a session of psilocybin? It was psilocybin and it was really, you know, grown mushrooms illegally at the time. But it did not bring the wow effect, you know. But shortly afterwards, you know, I know it sounds traumatic, but that's my life. Shortly afterwards, I had um heavy, heavy depressions again. Uh I tried everything, meditation and blah, blah, blah. And I um um actually I had a heart attack, which they called a heart attack. It was four years later, it was one year after this uh psychedelic uh assisted therapy session. And I landed in a hospital, and they wanted to put in a stand, and I saw. It on the on the screen because they let me watch, you know, that they could not get through. You know, they said, like, listen, sorry, we have to do a bypass because we can't get in, you know, it's so cramped, you know. So, yes, they flew me to the other hospital and blah blah blah. Long story again, you know, life-threatening triple bypass. One week later, when they let me go, they told me that this is probably a prolonged panic attack. Now, this is 36 years later, they tell me exactly the same thing. That, you know, it's probably not my thing. And I was like, Yeah, but this is melody. No, no, no, no, your brain is killing you, you know, because your heart doesn't know. You saw it on the screen. We could not get through, you know. So you have to do something about it, you know. And it was a year later that I went to my cardiologist, I did meditations, I did breastwork, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And my cardiologist said, like, this, and it's the fifth time that you come again to do uh an MRI, you know. Uh sorry to say, you know, I'm the one that does the plumbing, you know, and I tell you, you're not perfect, but the plumbing is kind of okay. But you have a problem with your roof. You need somebody that takes care of your fucking brain. And if you don't do it, you will have a panic attack again, and it's probably gonna kill you next time. And then I was like, what the fuck am I gonna do? You know, and quite honestly, now it becomes kind of romantic, you know, because um, yeah, through coincidences, I met uh two people that are that just founded the MINET Foundation in Berlin, which is mine foundation and Ovid Clinic. You can Google it, you know. The MINE Foundation uh is at the moment doing uh three-phase study, psilocybin study legally, uh, here at the charity in Berlin. And these two people, Hendrik Jung Abele and Andrea Jungabele, um, they were the first that said like there is a possibility with that, you know. Not now, it's not legal yet, you know, but we are working on it, that it becomes a possibility to be prescribed. That's very important because not everybody has the money to go to Ecuador or to Brazil or whatever and do the fancy uh ayahuasca uh tourism, you know. And and I was like, yes, if you're working on this, I'm gonna join. And that's what I actually did, you know. As a sideline, I I met people that are kind of semi-legal working with psilocybin in a truffle form, you know, which is available and not so expensive. And I had in the last four years another five sessions with psilocybin, with truffles, and also with LSD, uh in an absolutely not very funny therapeutic setting. And I know lots of people don't want to hear it, you know, because we all want to talk to God and have a little bit of enlightenment and listen to the music. Yes, I would also love to have this, you know. I have it when I'm not using psychedelics, you know. But I use psychedelics not only mainly, but the more purely to get slowly to my trauma, you know, and to open up. Now, this means in three years I I did not have this cruel depressions that blocked me out completely. I was one of these functioning depressive people, you know, that uh that are existing, but nobody talks about us, you know. I was even doing my job at the fucking university as a tutor and giving workshops, you know, and I had to force myself in the morning crying, you know, to get out of bed. And my only dream was, you know, to finish the day and get back into bed. But I performed. I was a freelancer, I had to make fucking money. Yeah, so I performed, you know, and everybody thought like uh he's a little bit serious, this Mr. W, you know. He's okay, you know. No, I was not okay. I didn't enjoy anything, and this got better.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

And didn't you didn't you feel that you could share those the burden of your depression and mental health in NA meetings?

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Yes. The thing is, I shared the problems. I shared and I I had good talks, you know. Uh quite honestly, my sponsor uh had the same depressions, but he came from a completely different environment. He didn't have the anxiety and panic attacks. So he kind of did the same thing that I did. We lived through it by sharing, by meditating, and blah blah blah. But he he, okay, I I don't want to talk about him, you know, but but my problem was I I had the somatic side. And my medical doctor said, like, no, no, no, no, no, no. We cannot do this another two months. You know, you have to do something. You either go on medication, and it means like SSRIs, which I do not use. Sorry for everybody that is using them. SSRIs are not a solution, they just numb you out, you know, and me personally.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

And they treat they treat the symptom, not the cause.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Yeah. There's a very, very interesting talk, you know, that is, I think it's even online, you know, at the inside conference, uh, which, oh my god, I have to make it short. Inside conferences was a conference where also Rick Doblin was invited, and blah, blah, blah. We had great talks. And one of the founders of the MINE Foundation, Dr. Gründer, Gerd Grunder, he's our main figure, you know, he's a pharmacologist that works now in the treatment area, and he's one of the pushers to get psilocybin legalized, you know. Now he shared how he came to change sites. And he told the story of his brother-in-law that he himself had medicated with SSRIs because he was working in a bank and needed to perform and started to have depressions. So Dr. Grunder gave him the SSRIs, you know, the serotonine blockers, and his brother-in-law could not, and they tried to set the doses down after one year. And the symptoms got worse than before. So Gerd Grunder realized as a doctor, as a pharmacologist, that this is an addiction, and he says it very clearly. He says it very loudly, without um any doubt, you know, this is we are getting people addicted to this stuff because we cannot solve the problem. You know, you stop the SSRIs, you have the depression again. And in my case, it was not only the depression, I stopped SSRIs, I have the heart attack again, you know. So, no, no, no, no, no. So, my way, and I'm I'm not promoting it, you know. If I could, quite honestly, if I could do it without uh taking anything, PhD, I would do it. I love to lie on the floor with my earphones on, listen to crazy ambient music, and to trip completely. I don't need any fucking LSD for it. Yeah. But if I want to get to the trauma of 18 months blackout as a child, being abused, you know, not being able to cope. I'm a 76-year-old man and I still have no idea what my sexuality is about. You know, this is not very funny. I want to die in peace. You know, that's my goal. I don't have more than 10 years left, you know, but I'm I'm not like working to do this and to have a house and a wife and 2.5 children, you know. I do this because I want to be in peace. And I was really happy to have a sitter that I know personally is a former client, by the way. You know, but and and we talked everything through, and she was sitting there reading and being there for me. Being there for me means I knew that she is there sitting. That was all, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Yeah, all you needed the safety, the safe container. And how are those uh five patterns in the last four years of five that's given to an LSD? How is that translated in terms of your uh recovery of mental health and recovery of addiction in in general? What have been the improvement, noticeable improvement?

SPEAKER_01 31:55

The improvement, you know. Um, maybe I have to add that I um um my experience is that the most important thing in PAT in psychedelic assisted therapy is the integration. It is crucially important. No, but we we don't have a book about it. You know, I am even like um I work in integration and I have the official title of being an integration facilitator, which quite honestly means nothing. There is not a lot of experience, but integration is a process that slowly, slowly brings you to using the experience in daily life. That's maybe a shortcut, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

We have a full question on what does your integration practice look like? So if you want to answer this now, as it is apropos, please feel free.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Um yeah, the answer is okay, we have all the classical stuff, journal sharing, super important. That's why I go to PIR meetings, because I cannot share this stuff openly in NA if I refer to psychedelics. And quite honestly, if if you're interested, you know, there is a way to share in in NA, or A, I don't know, but in NA. And I found it out with another friend that is also uh in PIR, you know, we share and we do not mention psychedelics, but we are both sharing about we are in a therapy. We're in a trauma therapy, and in trauma therapy, something was relieved, you know, my pain of like realizing that I was abandoned. And then I can share about it. I can share that I was crying for five hours, that I don't know how to go on, that I do a lot of meditation, that I need to talk about it, and nobody knows that I'm talking about psychedelics. You know, this is a trick that I learned early on in AA because I spent times in places where there was no NA meeting. And I learned to go to AA and to say, uh, I have a drinking problem. Because I was not lying, you know, I was like just like translating it in my head. I don't have to say explicitly, I'm a heroin addict, you know. Then they kick me out, and the same I do in NA, you know, I share about my stuff, but not mentioning that I do uh psychedelic assisted therapy. I do therapy. And my therapy is very intense. I even share sometimes that I do uh holotropic breastwork, and then I can even share about psychedelic states of mind, and nobody knows, you know, that I'm like that's my way, you know, and it's not you know to be accepted, but it's I don't like lying, you know. I really don't like it, you know, and it is because I feel guilty afterwards. I don't want to feel guilty because that's part of so so integration is for me mainly to get in contact with myself and to get away from this dream of being able to talk to God, you know, which I would love to do, but mainly to tell the world that I'm a special person that is able to talk to the universe, or that I was married to the Queen of Shiva once, which I found out in my last ayahuasca retreat in Ecuador. This is ego, you know. And uh I cannot afford it. You know, if if I want this state, I write a script. I'm good at it. My fantasy is beautiful, you know, but that's very close to insanity. So integration for me is learning to talk to my neighbor, and this is what helps me that I learned, you know, to sit like half an hour ago. No, no, no, now it's more than half an hour, you know. Uh I was in the street waiting for somebody, and at the same time, having in in my head that I have to get home to do the podcast, you know. And I started to be a little bit panicky. I thought, but she's not coming, you know. Now it's 1:30, I have to get back, and all of a sudden there was this moment where he said, Well, see, everything will be okay. Yeah, it will be okay. You will manage somehow. You either let her go or you let the podcast go. And well, no, I don't let the podcast go. All of a sudden, yeah, but this is experience from I don't want to say my last uh session, yes, but it was, you know, this thing of like feeling how painful stuff can be. And at the same time, there was this feeling, and it was not from outside, it was in me that said, Hey, Wolfie, baby, it's okay. Yeah, it will never be perfect, but it it is okay. Look, there's a tree, there are people, you know. You're still walking, which is a miracle, you know. So, hey, come on, calm down. These are are minutes or like that. I can sit on a bench and enjoy the little early sunshine. And my mind goes like, oh fuck, you're not in the Caribbean, you know, where's your house? Why did you have to sell your apartment in Paris? You know, uh, what was your career? You did not shoot the feature film, and I was like, Shh, yeah. Come on, hey, look, you know, there are nice people walking by, you know, flirt a little bit. You're too old, you know, you cannot flirt anymore. And the other voice says, like, hey, come on, you know, let's have fun. Now, this voice became active in the sessions. I don't know if it's God's voice. I think it's mine, you know. It's the better part of me, you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

It reminds me what when you're describing the past, it reminds me of the thing. Doesn't really matter. Yeah, it's probably the same.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Whatever, if you come from a culture uh that needs to put names and uh and stuff on it, then please use the names, you know, call it God or Allah or whatever, you know. But I come from a culture where I doubt in these entities, so I have to find my own stuff. And yes, and and like you just mentioned, you know, and uh okay, I refer shortly to I I do have very, very few memories of these 18 months in a mental hospital for children. In 1955, honey bunny, you know, in 1955, we didn't have any good children psychologists. We had killed them or exported them to the United States. You know, this is this was 10 years after the Second World War, you know, it was not a nice time, you know. So being in this, but I have nice uh little glimpses of memories. And one is, for instance, that I was telling stories. I remember that to other children there, I was telling stories, you know, and yes, there was something in me that made me survive and uh and created fantasy, you know, which they which nobody wanted because they were like insane and psychic. But this fantasy is beautiful, yeah, and it still helps me if I can attach to it, and and to get access to my own loving fantasy is integration. I need to reinforce it. There's this example uh that I learned in Buddhist monasteries that uh Europeans, you know, Westerners, they have a problem on the left side of the balance, and then they find a solution on the left side, they put energy on the left side, everybody that asks puts uh solutions on the left side, and the only possible way is put something on the other side of the balance, and you have to do it, and for them it was like, yeah, that's what we do, you know. You cannot solve the work, but you can sit in Sat Sen and just shut the fuck up. Yeah, but honestly, and that's in the integration, it's a little bit the same. Yes, there's crying, there is pain, there's abuse, and I go, like, wow, how wonderful, you know, you survived all this, you know. You did not have to kill anybody, you know. You had a stretch of prostitution, but blah, blah, blah it's a long time ago, you know. And it's not it's not positive thinking, it's acceptance. And it was the first time in my life that psychedelics helped me to accept. Yeah, naturally, if you're standing in mud, you accept first of all a lot of mud, you know. I was not expecting that it it's gonna be flowers and uh birds singing and angels carrying me, you know.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Yeah, I think integration is uh the the best integration is acceptance of of what uh what the plots or the type of code. It's not a good thing. Go back to the steps. Go a bit, go back to the next step two. Improve step level. Um and having a a way of doing the work once I know where to do it.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

Yeah, yeah. And this is the dream that we actually have that now, if this phase three study goes through, you know, which will take another one and a half to two years, you know, but if it goes through, then it would be legal in Germany for a psychotherapist, or no, not for a for a psychiatrist, you know, to prescribe a psychedelics assisted therapy. Not the drug, I can order it on on Telegram, you know, but the whole therapy thing, because then it would be possible to at least partly finance it through health insurance. And then I can go to an NA meeting and I can say, my psychiatrist prescribed me to do. This kind of therapy. So I can get rid of my function, not rid of my trauma, but I can like accept my trauma, make it part of me. Hello. And then there's no problem. It does not reduce the abuse. Like we know from alcohol, you know, celebrating red wine, you know, doesn't help an alcoholic. You know, the problem is the alcoholism, you know, it's not the red wine. So, you know, it's not about drugs or if it is dangerous or whatever, you know. At the moment, we have all these people NNA that come with the diagnosis of A DHA, you know, and they all go like, Well, yeah, I went to my psychiatrist and now I have to, and then they come and they have sort of nean blockers and they have uh Ritalin and blah blah blah. These were all drugs that I was using. Yeah. But they have no problem sharing it, you know, because it it was prescribed, you know. Yes. And this is, I'm not saying this is like the positive outcome, but I just want to get rid of this bad, bad and good, good thing, you know. Yes. I want a therapy. Yeah, I want a therapy. And yeah, and I think psychedelics are a genius way of 11th step.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Yeah. And yes, I I I read I read quite extensively of what the Mayen Foundation is doing in Berlin. And uh, by the looks of things, you are months away uh from that trial. And and I think that's the way forward. We have a very similar uh um uh company here. Uh it's uh it's uh it's a a private company working with the NATA on doing a similar trial. And I've seen a presentation um quite bold, uh looking at 2027 academic uh accepted therapy on the NATA for certain type of uh treatment for depression and also um uh anorexia nervosa. So that that's that's that's the for me, that's a way forward. I never I don't think we'll ever get to a place of legalization. And that's not necessarily uh um what's necessarily not necessarily what's uh required right now for for our uh population, for our people in recovery. We need uh to be accessible to uh as many people as possible. Because under addiction is uh trauma. And treating addiction is going to the root cause of our trauma and accepting, as you said, accepting trauma, integrating the fact that we are traumatized being that journey of individuation Jung was talking about is looking at all our parts, even the one we're hiding uh ourselves. Uh and that's where talking therapy for me has never been successful. Because I'm very good at talking. Um I can talk my my way out of trouble. Um, but I am very good at hiding. I've got protectors that are keeping that trauma uh safe and secure like a treasure.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Yeah, absolutely. And the thing is, you know, what is what is kind of frustrating sometimes is that uh we kind of know all these things. You just mentioned um Jung, you know, um we all uh um have these conversations between Jung and Bill Wilson, you know, in the AA program, you know, they were talking about it in 1964, you know, and we are still like you know, uh hiding this under the table. We all have a trauma. You can go on Instagram and you see uh Jung talking about addiction or Gabo Mate talking about addiction, that this is not substance-based, you know, that it is uh blah, blah, blah, you know, but we still hang on to this thing, oh, it's the bad, bad drugs, you know.

SPEAKER_00 48:03

Yeah, that's but things are moving in the things are moving slowly, but they are moving in the right direction, or so it seems. Yeah. Um, and I'm mindful of the time, and there is one more question I want to ask you that I ask all our guests, is what are you still struggling with? What is one challenge in your life that you're currently working to overcome with or without psychedelics?

SPEAKER_01 48:29

Me. No, it's like uh I don't like this word ego because we abuse it so much, you know. But this construct, this avatar, you know, that I had that I thought might be the solution that I that I constructed in my um in my in my need to get clean, you know. Until I was 28, you know, I I had given up completely. I'm an intelligent person, I knew what's going on. I realized when I was 24 that this is not going anywhere. Uh blah blah blah, you know. But from then on, when I started to have an idea that maybe I can have a life somehow, I started to create a Wolfgang. Um the Windsor teacher, the DOP, the psychotherapist, the uh owner of a film company, the clean addict, the guy that goes to an acting school at age uh 39, that becomes an actor, that becomes an acting coach, that becomes a professor at the university. That's all a beautiful construct. It's a narrative, you know, but it's killing me. It's killing me because I cannot identify with it, you know. I love it. It's like, you know, I I love clothes, you know, um, because it gives me an outer uh space, you know, but by by by creating this kind of outer world, you know, I fell so much in love with the outer world that I forgot completely to create an inner world. Yeah, and this is what psychedelics helped me to not get rid of the outer world, you know. So I'm not about ego dissolution, dissolution, you know, but but I'm about like okay, let the ego be. Yes, I like nice shirts, you know, I like to uh dress up, I'll um blah blah blah. But and now the other side of the balance, I have to I have to put something on my inner life, call it spirituality or whatever you want to call it, you know. Uh and did and this is where I'm I'm probably gonna work on it, or not working. I I I hope I can nourish it until I fucking die.

SPEAKER_00 51:13

Could you repeat what you've just said? You said I'm probably gonna work on because you we got the connection drops, and I didn't hear it's important.

SPEAKER_01 51:21

Um yeah, it's important for me too because I wanted to use the NA language, I have to work on it, you know. No, I I cannot work on it. I worked on my outside a lot, and I'm good at it, yeah. Because I, as I said, you know, I was not able to walk and talk about it. Seemingly I can walk and talk again. That's a lot of work, and I'm grateful for it, you know. But the inner work, you know, is not working. It's it's it's it's a love, a loving process. It sounds so cringe, you know. But and that's what psychedelics helped me to do, you know, to slow down, to agree, and to say, like, yeah, yeah, it's okay, Wolfie.

SPEAKER_00 52:03

To get to know your inner landscape and letting it be. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:07

You mentioned internal family systems, uh shadow work, it's it's all going in this direction. Yeah, it's an it's an assembly, it's a reunification of my if I call myself a family, you know, um, then there the kindergarten needs a little bit of development. Yeah. Outside is quite okay, you know. The outside family holiday is kind of okay. The inside is Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

I heard something in an ACA meeting not too long ago, which I absolutely adored. And the guy said it's never too late to have a happy childhood.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

Yeah, I wrote it too.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

And uh and that's what you're describing.

SPEAKER_01 52:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:53

And making making that childhood happy because that inner child is no longer scared. Yeah. That inner child is cared for. And the loving parents guidebook uh study that I've been doing for uh nearly two years now. It really helped me understand this. And and I do the at the beginning when you have to write a letter to your uh inner child and uh compassion and love, I was quite ringing all the way through because this is not something I'm familiar with or comfortable with. Uh I played the game and the result has been astonishing. I it's still very much a work in progress. I haven't worked my step in ACA. All I've done was read the loving parents uh guidebook study. Uh and and it's uh it's incredible. Showing up for the internal family, being in being in that inner landscape and being present and mindful makes a huge difference. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

And it's really healing, and that's you know, thank you for for sharing it, you know. Um I had a friend in NA who introduced me actually actually to two adult children of alcohol. I was like, ah come on, you know, another 12-star program. Oh uh and he once he he brought me the book, you know, and uh and and and only because I didn't I was afraid that he's gonna ask what it is, I opened it, you know, and I actually answered uh questions, you know, and I started to write, you know, and and it is it is a really loving process.

SPEAKER_03 54:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 54:31

And it's beautiful that you mentioned it because now I realize, see, that's practical integration. I just realized that my last session, which is like six months ago, uh, was mainly about being connected to this inner child. I I couldn't call it, you know, because I'm too much like uh intellectual psychologist, you know. But practically, yes. I I was crying, but in a in a relieving way, yeah. And uh and I was just like, wow, you know, this is like you know, it was not they hurt you, it was just like the the circumstances were not really nice. So and that's such a healing and warm and nice feeling.

SPEAKER_00 55:20

Yeah, it is the the program of of of the loving parents uh study study, from what I understand, is is very simple, but it's not easy. It it it it it requires time allocation, it requires being mindful, it requires letting go of things that uh have been protected for uh uh for years, uh which are not protected anymore and are harmful for and and for me it was almost almost disappearing, the critical voice, uh the one that said uh you know, on the bench, you can't flirt, you're too old, what do you think you're doing? That voice is uh it's it's a tiny little voice in the back of the head now. It comes back, but it's nowhere near uh the the leading voice. It doesn't, it it you know, it doesn't hold uh the the key voice.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

And I think it it um now when I listened to you saying it, you know, uh there was immediately a feeling that said, like, no, and I don't want to lose it completely. It's part of me too, this critical part. But I don't I don't want to have it in the foreground. Yeah. It's like uh it's a stupid quote, but Einstein once said, you know, that when they when they ask him that he more or less proves that there are different uh realities. So and he said, yeah, but in this reality, you know, um we have the best stakes. And yeah, but it was only part of it. And he said, uh, and about the ego loss, he said, like, yeah, but it's quite okay to understand that uh it that your ego is only like a momentum, but without it, I don't know who pays the rent, you know. And and that's the things, you know, and yes, we need all parts.

SPEAKER_00 57:10

Yeah, I I think that's why I I I'm I favor the Jungyan path of individuation.

SPEAKER_02 57:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

Uh everyone's invited, uh, but everyone behaves.

SPEAKER_01 57:21

Yeah. And to accept the shadow, also, you know, that that was Jung's the thing. And it's not a bad thing, you know, it is just part of me. Without the shadow, you know, I I cannot exist, you know.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

Shadow just shows the geographic location of the part. Yeah, not reflection on the part itself.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

And it can also be like, you know, it was as I said, I was living in the Caribbean on a little island once, you know, and okay, there was a lot of sunshine naturally. And there was one guy that was helping me a little bit, Maurice, and he was a very spiritual person in a different way, you know. He also had had insight. Um, in the voodoo world, it's totally normal, you know, it's nothing special. And he sometimes gave me little advice, you know. And he also realized when I had times of depression, you know, and he was warning me a little bit. He said, like, you're uh all alone, like three miles outside of Martinique, you know, you should be a little bit careful. You uh yeah, and you know, I said, but yeah, this is all so bad, and I can't. And and I said, Wolfgang, you know, why are you here? You are here because you love the sunshine, you know. And I was like, Yes. And I said, But listen, you know, if you're in the sunshine, you have to accept that there are deep, deep, deep shadows. And at the moment, you're in the shadow. How wonderful! You know, because otherwise you get sunburned. And then he turned around and he said, and by the way, if you want it gray and flat, go back to your fucking country.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

Yeah. I had a friend whose profile uh photo on WhatsApp read the brighter the light, the darker the shadow.

SPEAKER_01 59:10

The darker the shadow.

SPEAKER_00 59:12

Yeah. And it normally, yeah, it works that way. That's the law of the universe. Well, I'm afraid that that's all the time we have for. It has been an absolute pleasure uh talking, talking to you, hearing your experience. Uh, thank you very much, Wolfgang. Do you want to leave us with uh a last word of wisdom or something that uh you wish I'd asked you and I haven't?

SPEAKER_01 59:36

No, no, no. I was really happy doing this, you know. This is like this is why I participate in all this stuff, because it always adds something. And quite honestly, but this is something that the listeners won't understand, you know. But watching you changing from the beginning until now, you should like if you if you have a recording, you should watch yourself. You opened up when you talk about your inner child, and you know, you look like a 16-year-old. I don't know if it is Photoshop or like whatever, but that's the magic. We can have access to this side of us, you know. It's there, it's always there. Even when you die, it's still there, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

Yeah, yeah. I'm firmly convinced of that. But thank you very much. And thank you all uh for joining us today. And see you again soon. Psychedelics in recovery is a peer-led fellowship guided by anonymity, non endorsement, and mutual respect. Thank you for listening and for placing principles before personality.