Journeys of Healing: Steve O

In this episode of PIR® Integration Radio, we share an open and deeply human conversation with Steve O about recovery, trauma, and the ongoing process of healing and integration.

With honesty and vulnerability, Steve O reflects on his journey through addiction, mental health challenges, and the experiences that led him to seek deeper healing. He speaks about living with PTSD, the weight of unprocessed trauma, and the turning points that opened the door to new ways of understanding himself.

Together, we gently explore the role of psychedelic-assisted therapy, the importance of feeling safe and supported, and the ongoing work of integration — bringing insight into everyday life through therapy, community, and self-reflection.

This episode touches on inner child work, reparenting, and the courage it takes to face what has been held for a long time. It also offers an honest look at the realities of parenting, relationships, and learning to show up differently, even when it feels uncomfortable.

Above all, this conversation reminds us that healing is not a destination, but a practice — one that unfolds through willingness, support, and compassion, one day at a time.

  PIR® Integration Radio is a podcast produced by Psychedelics in Recovery.
In keeping with PIR® traditions, the podcast offers a space for reflection, shared experience, and integration, in support of recovery. It does not promote or endorse substance use. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

I don't know what's gonna happen in terms of quote releasing my addiction all over again as the NA book says. I felt it was worth the risk. Because I was really worried about my well-being and my life. As far as potentially dying by suicide. So the way I've said it is it felt like the risk of not using psychedelics was greater than the risk of using them.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Welcome to Psychedelics in Recovery Integration Radio, a safe space where PIR, also known as Persons in Recovery, come and share their experience, strengths, and hope with us. With you. My name is Anne, and I'm a person in recovery and your host today. This radio is part of PIR's ongoing effort to carry the message of recovery to those still suffering. In alignment with the 12th tradition that guide our fellowship, this program will not be funded by outside contributions. PIR as an organization has no opinion on outside issues. While we discuss plant medicine and psychedelics in this episode, PIR does not promote or endorse their use. The spiritual intention of PIR and of this broadcast is to create diverse, safe and sacred spaces for all who wish to recover, always striving for humilities over hubris and principles before personalities. Whether you're new to the idea of integrating psychedelics or plant medicine in your recovery process, new to recovery or a long-term member of the fellowship, our aim is to create a space of curiosity, connection, and hope. In this first series, entitled Journeys of Healing, we explore the intersection of recovery and the transformative potential of psychedelic medicine through some of our members' experience. So settle in, open your mind, and let's walk this path together. This is Integration Radio. And today it gives me great pleasure to introduce to you Steve O, who's come to share his experience, strength, and hope about about PIR, about his psychedelic recovery. Hello, Steve, and thank you very much for coming today.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Hi Ann. My pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

How are you?

SPEAKER_00 2:26

I'm good. I mean, there's a lot going on in my life, so uh I am showing up the best way I can. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Thank you very much for that. Can you please give us um a bit of background on how you qualified for your first fellowship? Which one was it? How old were you? And the journey to PIR or to psychedelics, whichever came first.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Well, my first fellowship was Narcotics Anonymous, uh, which I joined when I was uh 25 years old. I'm not gonna get like into way into details about you know war stories or whatever. Um I was using uh on a daily basis, and um I was at a point in my life where I was feeling really lost. I would say I was approaching uh unemployable and homeless. You know, I was actually living in my van, which was well before these fancy $150,000 sprinter vans and whatnot. Um but I just I was looking for meaning in my life, and I just yeah, something wasn't quite right. I I don't know that I could fully articulate it at the time, but um I knew that I needed help um because I was having, like I said, a hard time functioning as a person in society and and holding on a job. So I actually reached out to my parents uh and I remember leaving them a voicemail, and this was the best way I could articulate it. Um well back then I was probably a message on an answering machine, but um, I said, I'm having troubles, um, which it's a kind of an odd term, but I think it was simply um me reaching out for help. And so they were not in denial as much as I was, and and I guess because they suggested I find um some help for my substance use, and so I um found my way into narcotics anonymous, um, like I said, when I was 25. And I really had no idea that there were other people that felt the way I did, um, as far as um feeling lost and and trying to um and using drugs on a daily basis and um and everything that goes along with that. And so yeah, I jumped in. I uh I I guess the denial got stripped away fairly quickly. Um and I remember one of the first times early on in my recovery um in NA that it was one of the first places I felt welcome in a long time because I was really isolated and the way I was living, um, I wasn't, you know, wasn't really part of community. And so that part was really uh a welcome relief, and I felt um safe, I guess, for one of the first times in a long time. And so I like I said, I jumped in, you know, and uh next thing you knew, I knew I was going to meetings regularly, I had found a sponsor, um, and I was you know participating in NA as an active member. Um, this was in Southern California, which is where I grew up, and that was in 1994, and and there was a lot of meetings. I also went to AA, so I feel fortunate I got clean in an area that had a lot of meetings, um, and I had a lot of choices, and there was a robust fellowship, and uh there was a lot of people that um were working the program, and um but at the same time I needed some more structure, and so I actually ended up in a recovery center for six months because even though I was able to find some support in NA, I I still needed something more, and so finding my way into like I said, that recovery center was really nice to you know just just get some further support, which without having to worry about trying to find a job and hold down a job and all that. But and I know this is sort of a long answer, but um I was really active in NA largely, I although I identify as an alcoholic and I've I attended AA meetings at times as well, particularly when I would travel um to more remote areas or more rural areas or whatnot, and I wanted to go to a meeting. I I I felt um welcome and identified as an alcoholic as what as well. Um but yeah, like I said, I was active for a solid um 25 odd years, and uh and that was great uh for the most part. And you know, there was a lot of growth, and I was able to um start a career and you know become a you know responsible and productive member of society, like um we say in NA. But at some point, uh, like I said, around that 25-year period, I was having some other mental health um challenges. I actually had been retreated for depression for a long time. Um, and then my career was as a firefighter paramedic, and I was having some symptoms that um were associated with PTSD, which I was not expecting. I'll say that because at the time, which is probably um the first time I was diagnosed with PTSD, I really thought that that was a um condition that only um military veterans were you know susceptible to. We there's a lot of denial in our industry that we um you know that it was the same risk that we were taking. There's just a lot of denial in that culture about mental health. We really didn't even talk about it much at all during the first 15 years or so of my career, though I think it was around 2012-2013, the department I worked for, there was two members that committed suicide in short period, yeah, in like a nine-month period. And so I think that was a bit of a shock. Well, of course it was a shock, but uh also stripped away some of the denial, sort of a hey, we need to really look at this. Um, like I said, around that time, or maybe even before that, I had been diagnosed with PTSD and was just starting to do some therapy, you know, specific to that, including EMDR. But fast forwarding a little bit, I think um I was, I think it was the summer of 2018, was on my way back from a fire assignment in southwest Colorado. I remember driving through the San Luis Valley, and I heard I was on listening to NPR and I heard an interview with yes, Michael Pollan about his then new book, How to Change Your Mind. And it was a fascinating conversation that really introduced me to the concept of using psychedelics as a healing modality. Um, I just, you know, that was kind of the first I had heard of that, and I was very intrigued for sure. And so at, you know, in the ensuing year perhaps or more, I I don't remember all the dates, but um, I decided, quote, doing my own research, uh, as we say, which I think research is a bit strong of a word just because I have friends that are scientists and they do like legitimate full online scientific research. But what I mean by research meant I look at looked at things on the internet uh and read articles, and I think there was a few podcasts perhaps here or there um about psychedelic use um for healing, but there wasn't a ton of information. Uh there just wasn't uh a lot of people talking about it. But I um yeah, like I said, I explored what that possibly could look like, and and I were and so I felt that I had been spinning my wheels in NA to a certain extent, uh, meaning I was going to meetings and I was working uh with a sponsor and doing service and all that, but I was still really having some serious mental health challenges. I um was experiencing anxiety, um, which was sort of new, um, and some panic attacks at times. Um, and I was kind of I was miserable. I was also having like, I guess what I now know are emotional flashbacks um per Pete Walker's book, and I was acting out in ways that you know I was I was um breaking things, I was screaming, I was like having these like what I'll call freakouts. So something was definitely I I needed more help, and so I had just got to the point where um I knew I needed something different, I was aware of again people were using psychedelics. I had kind of met some people that um had some experience with that, and at some point I think it was the classic simple internet search using psychedelics in recovery or using psychedelics while you're in recovery, and lo and behold, I found the PIR website, and I think this was about night 2019 or 2020, uh roughly. Um, and so I found my way into PIR before I made the choice to use psychedelics, and at that point there was maybe five or seven meetings a week. I think we had one on a daily basis, but not necessarily. Uh, most of the meetings were I think like single digits, and the big meeting was 12 or 15. So we've grown a ton, which is amazing. And did you want me to go into when I first used psychedelics?

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Or do you remember now talking about your uh discovery of PIR? And do you remember which meeting was the first one you went to?

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Oh gosh. I don't I I want to say for some reason I'm just remembering Saturday morning live, possibly, as it definitely was an early meeting I attended. I don't know for sure though.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

And what was your first impression? What did you say to yourself when you um went to your first meeting? What happened, and what do you remember what your thoughts were then?

SPEAKER_00 13:09

I remember kind of going, wow, this is super cool that uh there are people that are exploring these other modalities that I think um could help me. I again was really suffering from some serious mental health challenges, and whether it was having done therapy for many years, going to NA and AA meetings, um, using pharmaceutical psychiatric meds. I needed more. I just wasn't getting the care or wasn't getting all the treatment that I needed. And so I I sensed that psychedelics could be something that helped me, but I was afraid to use anything after, like I said, 25 odd years of full and complete abstinence, with the exception of a little bit of THC use at one point, which yeah, we can get into if we need to. But um I thought that, well, gosh, if there's all these people that are using psychedelics, whether it's people in PIR, Michael Pollan, the people he's referenced, the different articles I've read, um, etc. etc., why if they're if they're people getting mental health benefits, spiritual benefits from the use of these medicines, like why would I be different just because I had had I was quote an addict or quote an alcoholic or I'd experienced substance use disorder or whatever, like it just didn't make sense to me that just because I was a member of NA and again identified as an addict who had had a problem with substance use, that somehow these medicines wouldn't work for me. That just didn't make sense to me. Um and so I was definitely um, like I said, intrigued. I think I felt some hope. Um, I was curious. I thought that uh wow, well, here's something that might help me. Um maybe this is something to explore. Um yeah, and uh it was, I guess, somewhat similar to when I first got into NA, where I felt uh um, you know, a sense of belonging, or um that sense of hope, or okay, uh here's a new community of people that I could draw some experience, strength, and hope from, um, or just draw upon their collective experience with um different healing modalities that might work for me. So um, yeah, I think it was definitely, I guess I would say I felt hopeful more than anything.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

And how long was it before you um experienced uh psychedelics for yourself? And and how did you do that? Did you microdose? Did you uh have a ceremony with the therapist or shaman? How did you go out?

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Sure, sure. I think it was probably six months. I don't remember for sure, but um I definitely remember talking to different members about what medicines they had used, um, what their experience was like. Like, what can I possibly expect? Having only having used mushrooms a couple of times, you know, when I was in my early 20s, so it had been you know 25 or more years, and so roughly six months, I think. And then outside of the rooms, had one friend that had made a connection for me with one of his friends that had been using psychedelics. Like this friend had used psychedelics like more recreationally, he was not in uh recovery, but he introduced me to someone that had used psychedelics more uh for healing. I don't remember if they were in recovery per se, but she uh made a couple connections for me, and my first experience was with uh a therapist using um ketamine lozenges or lozenges. I can't remember if I used did one or two sessions, but it was not particularly impactful. Um, it wasn't a very deep journey, it's because it wasn't intermuscular or IV, you know, and ketamine was just starting to kind of become a thing. Um and so that was actually kind of odd. I I found ketamine to be given that it's this associative, it was just I didn't feel like that was what I needed. I needed more. I felt like all right, and but that felt like I'm like, let me take dip my toe into this um and do something lower dose and see what that's like. I just I I didn't feel like I was ready to to dive all the way in. But once I had that again, low dose experience with ketamine, that just wasn't particularly impactful. And so I connected with someone else who was uh a therapist that was that I had a nice conversation with, and she felt that given the um trauma I had experienced, and we were initially focused, I think, on um work-related trauma, she suggested that we use MDMA. And so that is um, and that felt I trusted her, you know. I I hadn't didn't I had didn't have a long-term relationship with her as a therapist, but um my again friend's friend who I had a couple nice conversations with that I felt um I could trust her, she recommended this therapist, and and I had a good feel for her. And I was also fucking desperate. You know, I was worried about about my I don't remember if I was actively suicidal, but I definitely had suicidal thoughts at the time, so I was fucking desperate. And so MDMA sounded like they had never used it before, sounded like a pretty gentle medication. And I don't remember where the maps trials were at at the point at the time. I think possibly in the phase two of the MDMA, excuse me, FDA trials. And so again, looking at that, those studies, um and seeing that, oh, there's some evidence uh supported by this research that um veterans, I think largely were the population, they are um getting significant benefit from this um treatment, MDMA assisted therapy. Like, okay, again, why would I be different? Um, just because I was a member of NA. I mean, it just didn't make sense. So that is where uh I started, and I remember thinking, I don't know what's gonna happen in terms of quote releasing my addiction all over again, as the NA book says. I felt it was worth the risk because I was really worried about my well-being and my life as far as potentially um dying by suicide. And so the way I've said it is it felt like the risk of not using psychedelics was greater than the risk of using them.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

At some point it becomes a risk reward. Uh and I I I was at the same uh jump-off place uh where the the risk was losing my sponsor. Uh she'd threaten me if you go down that route. I can't sponsor you anymore. I was uh I was new in recovery, but I had that calling and I knew I knew I had to go through it. I knew I had to let go of a few things that had really helped me in order to pursue this core.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Yeah. Well, that's interesting because I did not uh talk to my NA sponsor about it. I had a sense what he would say um would be, no, you're gonna release your addiction all over again, or just I don't support that, or or whatever the case may be. And I I think that all those years in recovery, to some extent, you know, talk to your sponsor, talk to your sponsor, talk to other members. I had not lost the ability to trust my intuition, but I had been conditioned that my thinking is fucked up, my thinking is broken. I can't trust myself because I'm an addict, and so you need to run everything by someone else. And you know, I get that to a point. Um, but this was something that just really felt like I needed to do, like you said, and I wanted it to be my decision, and so that was kind of unusual for me in a sense that yes, self will. Yeah, okay. I don't know what to say, but I chose to not tell my sponsor, uh, at least initially, and I think after a couple of sessions, um, I did tell. him and then he fired me.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Oh well.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

You know. Yeah exactly. That and that relationship had really kind of run its course at that point anyway. So that that wasn't that big of a deal really.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

And how were the sessions?

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Yeah, great question. Okay. Well we did, I believe, four sessions spread out over a period of perhaps six months. And I don't think we followed the maps protocol to the T actually. I don't know for sure what dosage I took because I didn't want to know a number because I didn't want to have any expectation about the type of experience I would have. But um wow well um there's a lot there uh that came up or that I experienced I remember for sure dropping into the MDMA space we'll call it the first time and I remember how gentle it almost felt like I was floating uh with a parachute and just gently um coming to earth or coming down if that makes sense just yeah into the space and feeling oh god wow okay I can take a deep breath and hmm wow okay this uh this feels nice I feel safe I feel embraced um I hadn't felt uh safe for a long long time and I don't think I've felt safe a whole lot in my life and so um again fuck I don't remember the intentions I set by any means I definitely in general was expecting that I was going to be working on again working on work related trauma you know at that point you know I think it was 12 I don't know how many years as a firefighter paramedic 17 ish I think and I'd worked on the ambulance for about 10 or 12 years. I'd been through I've seen a plenty you know um I don't need to get into all those details but boy that job just beat you up and being on the ambulance is really the meat grinder. But one thing for sure I remember which I was fascinating was I don't know that I met every single person who died in my under my care or while I was a paramedic but there was a whole line of them that I got to meet and see and say goodbye to if you will and wish them the best because we didn't do that. I didn't get to process that's those experiences. It just wasn't part of the culture and I I just you know although I wasn't you know seeing therapist I just wasn't doing that work and so that was really unexpected and wild because it was in a place that my therapist called the temple like like she knows of it. I'm like okay cool it had this sense of like almost like a amphitheater of stone that I might you might see in Central or South America perhaps you know Aztec Mayan I just don't know that culture super well anyways it's this giant like outdoor amphitheater um and kind of one by one those um people um came and and I got to see them and uh and like I said wish them the best and and do some grief work. I know wow totally wild didn't expect that and that I guess I would say was somewhat the tip of the iceberg um because over the course of those sessions which again I think we did four I slowly uh but deeply realized and got to work on the the trauma I experienced as a child. And at first it started with the sense of being uh neglect emotional neglect from my parents who just were not capable of providing me with the care uh and presence that I really wanted and needed as a child and they both experienced or suffered from profound mental illness andor um they were survivors of trauma and abuse themselves. So that was really insightful to really meet my younger self or selves including uh this one experience that uh was what pretty wild where I met a part uh a younger part and we'll call him little Steve and I believe he was about eight years old and he was in a place that was far far away that um he had been hanging out in until I could find him and time gets whatever time and space and I I'm not really great at sort of some of the esoteric or whatever aspects about time and space but he was there in a place that felt like outer space like really far away not on a physical not on earth in a place yeah like we'll call he was out in outer space which made so much sense because he needed to get the fuck out of those horrible experiences which I'll get to in a in a moment just hanging out he was somewhat lonely but he felt safe um and that's a place that he needed to go to survive and you might call it dissociation you might call it soul fracturing um I'm not totally sure in exile in IFS language which I didn't know at the time but um I got to meet him and over the period of again several sessions I got to um build a relationship with him and uh earn his trust at such that he took me to witness and and be with him during some pretty horrific experiences that it was that I had fully repressed for 45 odd years. And I don't necessarily want to get into tremendous detail but uh my mom attempted suicide at least twice while I was a child. There were times when my dad was not at home and so I again I believe I was eight years old my brother is a year older he was nine and in both of those uh occasions we found her and we saved her life. I basically was doing first responder work uh at a young age oh wow that's uh that's a lot uh um and I got to be there with him or them and it wasn't like watching this experience on a screen I mean we were there I mean we were we were right there um in the experience and I got to be with him and support him and care for him and nurture him and uh yeah and so I I got to realize and see that I'd experienced um really profound trauma at a a young age and how I had reacted or responded to that um I learned about dissociation uh I learned that I'd suffered I guess we'll call it nervous system injury um and of course it was inevitable to a certain extent that I became a first responder because I I learned yeah this is incredible that ability that psychedelics have uh to to put the light and to help on something on an episode of our life would have forgotten and help us connect the dots it of course all makes sense now that you uh you have had that experience from such a young age and the powerlessness you must have felt uh in a situation like this and the anger towards my mom and dad that I didn't get a chance to express uh I wasn't safe um and the wildest thing for me is that despite having experienced the you know these suicide attempts and some other violent just crazy stuff um we didn't even we never talk about it like I don't remember I think we never spoke a word about it and became a family secret. So after having those experiences with during those MDMA sessions I felt like I ended up talking to my brother about like I wanted to confirm that was true it was so extreme that it was hard to believe. And so I remember talking to my brother who although he didn't remember the specifics of those experiences he sure didn't doubt it and he had some other memories that definitely led you know to confirm that mom had been profoundly mentally ill and that she definitely was um capable of doing something like that. But my mom also had uh a number of friends that she had uh met uh through her job she was a school teacher and they'd stayed in touch for decades actually it's pretty impressive I reached out to a couple of them and they did not remember that specifically but again they knew that my mom had had some mental health challenges but what was fascinating was I guess um despite those being close friends of my mom's they didn't know that any of those details like they just didn't talk about that stuff at least my parents didn't it was absolutely um like you said um keep those family secrets and um and God how sick that was and so really it was just a even though it's been really hard to oh man have kind of re-experienced those um experiences and and have to um process the feelings uh shining a light on that has been critical and it's what needed I mean sometimes I wish I wouldn't open have opened Pandora's box you know it's so to speak but that was the stuff that was running in the background perhaps um and um it was just I I needed to shine a light on those experiences to to move forward uh integrating um these parts integrating those experiences and then like you said just getting us insight into why yeah why yeah that's the best I can say right now and you talk about integration integrating those parts that uh neatly brings me to my next question is is what your what is your integration practice? Uh great question I would say the first two things that come to mind are working with the therapist one and then attending PIR meetings or being involved in the PIR fellowship and so one uh I did do actual you know therapy sessions more talk therapy with uh the woman that I had done the um MDMA assisted yeah so um that was super useful to just talk through uh and um have those sessions where we um explored while not under the influence of any medicine about what had happened and giving that um those parts a voice um and that included sessions but then also formal sessions but I remember just a lot of writing of giving those parts of a voice um and again I kind of remember like expressing a lot of anger and rage at my parents and um then I remember a couple of times hiking I've always been really into the outdoors but I remember just having these conversations out loud like you motherfuckers and goddammit mom you had no right to to to do this and I'm angry and you betrayed me and you didn't give me what I need and just really literally talking out loud um while out in nature to get that stuff out which was super therapeutic um because like I said earlier that those parts didn't have really any support or care you know back when I was a child we didn't go to therapy we didn't talk about as a family just bottled it all up and so that was great and then PIR meetings uh andor parking lots or just one-on-one conversations with PR members about the experience I experiences I had had and um even part of that is is just um holding space for other members to hear their experiences that has been super therapeutic as well and um yeah we talked about IFS a little bit and ACA so I also got um introduced to and got involved with ACA through the PR fellowship and learning about um the IFS framework with my therapist you know same like I said a newer therapist that although I didn't do um psychedelic journeys with her she has experience with medicine and um like I said a lot of work to spend time with those younger parts and not only give them a voice but then um be present for them as you know in in the context of reparenting um so yeah a variety of different I guess integration practices um that that come to mind.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Yeah good and uh it's coming towards the end of the podcast but their question I ask all my guests is what is it that you uh currently struggling with or an issue uh that you're working on with or without psychedelics in your recovery?

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Oh what a great question um and we could go on for hours couldn't we um which is great you know there's a lot to unpack from psychedelic use of course right now the biggest challenge is um I'm gonna go with parenting we have a 14 year old son who is um not thriving he is um really struggling with um academically uh socially um it sounds like there is some bullying he may be experiencing um and he is acting out in way uh anger and rage um the other night he um was hurting our dog um who's the sweetest thing ever um and then he also slapped my wife across the face um and I am very much I guess I'll say what comes to mind is I'm powerless over his behavior which is I think what's going on for me is feeling responsible or it's my fault which really takes me back to my um parenting I'm powerless and uh I feel like it's my fault oh it goes back to my mom and how um really back to her mom and how abusive um so my maternal grandmother was telling my mom you're no good you'll never amount to anything and just that how that got passed down to me as well not maybe those exact words but the sense that it's my fault and I'm responsible and even I deserve to be miserable and so parenting right now like I said the powerlessness and how do I show up differently than my parents it's sometimes hard to have perspective on that because uh with everything that's going on with my son and his behavior um it's just like I said hard not to feel responsible and blame myself um but it's a chance for me to really um love on myself and have compassion and grace for all of us um in our family my wife my son and I kind of more immediately but then when I look back at my younger parts and then my parents and their parents all this intergenerational trauma how can I again have the compassion and kindness and care for all of us all my relations that came up the other day of someone was talking about all my relations in the context of some ceremony so that's that's what's going on right now um being gentle with myself to start and prioritizing my mental and emotional health my well-being and there's a lot um that goes into that and then how can I show up for my son uh in a loving way with some patience some grace and care because when he's acting out it's hard not to get triggered such that I want to um act out myself because I'm in that fight or flight mode. And so yeah a chance to do the practices that I need to do to regulate my nervous system um which is at times very difficult with the history and the trauma and like I said the nervous system system injury I've suffered but I have tools and practices um that can help me um start by regulating myself and and then showing up differently for my son.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

Yeah well I'm sorry to hear Paul I think parenting for me um it took me years to understand step three and then when I understood step three I was handing my will in my life except my children anything touching children is difficult to hand over and powerlessness I have I have felt that I've got a son who's a similar age and it's a tough time for those young men um to be in this world. And um how do you know where do we find the tools that we were not brought up with and I think that's where the the the plant medicine world in and PIR can be very helpful.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Absolutely um and I've had the chance to and I reach out to others that have um have children you know the same age or older and get their experience hope with parenting that gives me hope because I know quite a few people who you know in PIR and elsewhere who have either are going through similar things or have gone through challenges with their um children including um kids with um substance issues and um one of my friends in recovery um worried that at any point he was going to get a call um saying his son or sons had died from an overdose um and to hear that their kids are now thriving or at least doing much much better that gives me hope because my God the shit that I did is um as a younger person um it's really quite miraculous that I'm alive you know and and I would imagine I know it's the same for many of us in recovery so it's absolutely terrifying um to think of the behaviors that my son could choose we're not there yet um we're here so but the fear the fear is real um but yeah coming back to the present moment and literally lately what's the next right thing and putting one foot in front of the other I mean some of these mantras that we get from you know recovery or elsewhere um that really uh is helpful.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

And one that is very good from Alanon is put the focus on you. I think one one thing that recovery has taught me is to learn to be selfish and very different to self-centered but uh look after me put my the oxygen mask on me first uh because I had a tendency of being the rescuer and getting distracted from the work. But it's so difficult especially when it comes to children.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

Yeah as a first responder all those years we used to say um and I got pretty good about being calm and not emotional while um being on those scenes we'd say that you know be part of the solution don't be part of the problem or this is not my emergency. So um keeping things in perspective and showing up like I said in a way that's calm And measured. And I found that a lot easier to do as a first responder than to be at home with my son who's acting out. It is so challenging to stay regulated when violent behavior is occurring in my home. And so yeah, that would say that's probably the definitely the biggest challenge right now.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

So well, thank you for sharing so vulnerably and honestly with us. This is sadly all the time we have for. But thank you once again. And do you want to have a last word of wisdom before we close?

SPEAKER_00 44:35

Oh last word of wisdom. For some reason, what came to me, and it's an NA slogan, is keep coming back. Or maybe AA as well. I've been going to some in-person AA meetings again, but I'm saying that to others as well as myself. Keep coming back and trust the process. More will be revealed. These are cliches, but that's what I need to hear. That um yeah, um stay involved in this fellowship or in the fellowships you're involved in, and uh stay connected. That's where that's what we all need is that connection.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Indeed. Thank you very much, Steve. And I'll speak to you soon.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Okay, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

Psychedelics in recovery is a peer-led fellowship guided by anonymity, non-endorsement, and mutual respect. Thank you for listening and for placing principles before personalities.