Journeys of Healing: Kenesha

In this powerful and deeply honest conversation, Kenesha shares her journey through recovery, depression, and ultimately, renewal. After nearly a decade of sobriety, she found herself facing an unexpected and painful reality—despite doing “everything right,” she was no longer okay. The tools that had once sustained her no longer seemed to reach the depth of her suffering.

What followed was a courageous search for answers beyond the familiar. Through curiosity, vulnerability, and a willingness to question long-held beliefs, Kenesha found her way to psychedelics—and to PIR®, where she experienced what she describes as a second “welcome home.”

With openness and clarity, she speaks about the relief of finding a space where recovery can evolve, where mental health can be spoken about freely, and where shame can be replaced by understanding. She shares how microdosing psilocybin helped quiet her inner critic, reconnect her to a loving inner voice, and ultimately “give her life back” when she felt unable to even rise from the couch.

This episode is not about replacing one path with another, but about expansion—about what it means to stay committed to recovery while allowing new tools, new perspectives, and deeper layers of healing to emerge.

Kenesha’s story is a reminder that recovery is not a fixed destination, but a living, evolving journey. And sometimes, finding your way forward means being willing to rediscover what “home” truly means.

  PIR® Integration Radio is a podcast produced by Psychedelics in Recovery.
In keeping with PIR® traditions, the podcast offers a space for reflection, shared experience, and integration, in support of recovery. It does not promote or endorse substance use. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:02

We talk about things that you never want to do again because you stop using. I can say that I have experienced things sober that places that I do not want to be again. And that is one of them. Where I am on the couch. I know it's a beautiful day, and I can't get up. And psychedelics helped me break through that. They gave me my life back.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Welcome to Psychedelics in Recovery Integration Radio, a safe space where PIR, also known as Persons in Recovery, come and share their experience, strengths, and hope with us. With you. My name is Anne. I'm a person in recovery and your host today. This radio is part of PIR's ongoing effort to carry the message of recovery to those still suffering. In alignment with the 12th tradition that guide our fellowship, this program will not be funded by outside contributions. PIR as an organization has no opinion on outside issues. Whilst we discuss plant medicine and psychedelics in this episode, PIR does not promote or endorse their use. The spiritual intention of PIR and of this broadcast is to create diverse, safe and sacred spaces for all who wish to recover. Always striving for humility over hubris and principles before personalities. Whether you're new to the idea of integrating psychedelics or plant medicine in your recovery process, new to recovery or longtime member of the fellowship, our aim is to create a space of curiosity, connection, and hope. In this first series entitled Journeys of Healing, we explore the intersection of recovery and the transformative potential of psychedelic medicine through some of our members' experience. So settle in, open your mind, and let's walk this path together. This is the PIR Integration Radio. And today it gives me great pleasure to welcome Kinesha, who has come to share her experience with us. Hello, Kinesha, and thank you very much for being with us this morning. Good morning.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Thank you so much, AN, for having me here. It's it's a pleasure, truly and an honor, I think, to be a voice and to be a part of PIR. So thank you. Pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

And it's interesting, you and I met before PIR. We met on Clubhouse. On Clubhouse. On another live podcast of the Florish Academy.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

So that's, you know, I couldn't believe this small world of psychedelic. But um tell us, how did you land in PIR? Tell us a little bit more about that journey coming from recovery. Uh, we'll go back on your recovery journey later, but how did you come across psychedelics and PIR?

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Wow. Okay, well, the shortest version I think would be something like a Google search. Um, but the the longer version started um a few years ago. First, I'll say that I am um a baby of AA and numerous fellowships. So I've been to AA, CA, um, I've done Al-Anon, I've been in Naranon, and um my recovery date is November 9th of 2014. So I've actually got a birthday coming up. And uh about I'd say somewhere around year nine, I started to enter like this depressive phase, and I didn't know what was going on. So, of course, what do we do? I started talking to my fellowship. Hey, I don't know what's happening. And the immediate response was maybe I needed to do more, you know, maybe I needed to do more service. Uh, so I started doing more service, started going to more meetings, picked up more sponsees, and I was still spiraling. Um, so then we started talking about getting maybe it was time to start seeking outside help. So I started doing counseling, and then from counseling, started to switch to doing some testing, and then they started looking at mental health. And um, at the same time, I'm on Clubhouse. And I start entering these rooms where we're on Clubhouse, and these women are talking about being dual diagnosed, and you know, I had no idea what that meant. And so now we're talking about mental health and also being an addict and and um having ADHD or bipolar, and they're they're expressing all of these things. And from there, I'm like, well, maybe this is something I should take a look at. And then while I'm on Clubhouse, I saw something about psychedelics and ADHD, and that was in the Flourish Academy. And so they're talking about okay, ADHD, and then now I'm hearing how psychedelics can help with mood. And I got to a point where a doctor offered me an SSRI, and I didn't want to do that. I wasn't ready for that. And so I started saying, well, I guess I want to, I'm gonna try microdosing instead. But I was so concerned about what does this mean in my recovery? Is this a mood or mind-altering substance? What do I do? And so now I'm Googling and searching for what, like, what do people do in recovery? How what does my recovery look like in psychedelics? And that's how I ended up finding psychedelics in recovery. And it was just this beautiful merger that came, I think right on time for me. I love that when I came into recovery, I heard someone say welcome home. And I did, I felt at home. And then it was amazing to hear when I got in PIR, someone say, Welcome home again. And it was the next level. It was the next level of comfort for me.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

And do you remember which was your first meeting?

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Wow. Which one was my first? My gosh, no. No, I don't. I don't remember which meeting.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

And so what was your first impression? What stuck with you? The welcome home again.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

The welcome home again um was was powerful. It was probably a women's meeting that I went to first, but it was what I would say was powerful to me or impactful was the comfort in knowing that I could still be in recovery. And that to know that there were old timers. So here it is. Here I'm sitting with with you know, 10 years and thinking I'm still a newcomer, but and that I had been doing something wrong. There was so much shame that I had wrapped around having to take this psychedelic to help me to hear people saying that they had done it and they were okay. And that they had, you know, that there's people in PIR with 30, 40, 50 plus years. And they're okay. And they had embraced the idea. That was that was comforting. I needed to, I needed that embrace in my life.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

So you started your your journey with microdosing, you said.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Yes. That went well. I will tell anyone that psychedelics saved my life. Microdosing saved my life. What happened for me was that it calmed down my inner critic. And there was a new voice that I could hear. If you've, you know, ACA is that loving parent or higher self. I could hear that voice say little things like, it's gonna be okay. You know, you have the ability to do it if you want to. So there was this encouragement that came. I mean, there were times where I would be laying on the couch, staring at the back of the couch, out of my peripheral vision. I can see that it is a beautiful day outside and I can't get off the couch. And that's, you know, we we talk about things that you never want to do again because you stop using. I can say that I have experienced things sober, that places that I do not want to be again. And that is one of them where I am on the couch, I know it's a beautiful day, and I can't get up. And psychedelics helped me break through that. They gave me they gave me my life. And what what was it that you microdosed, if I can ask? Um, it was psilocybin. I specifically used Golden Teacher, which is considered to be a gentler version of mushrooms and a heart opener. And um I started very gently. I was I started with doing it was four on, three off, and then I went through one cycle, and then I did it in every other day cycle, really listening to what was happening. What was the mushrooms telling me? And then I stopped and it just became hey, today I think I need a dose, or maybe like a Tuesday and a Friday. So it's very sporadic now.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

And have you um have you experienced a ceremony setting?

SPEAKER_02 9:31

I have not experienced a what I would consider to be a ceremony, like with a shaman or with a guide. I have not had that experience. What I did do though, I wanted to have my own personal, you know, ceremony. It's it was a full moon, and I was like, I'm gonna go dance before the moon and be in nature. One thing I love about psychedelics is that to me, they show you the areas that you know you need to work on and where that healing happens. And so, um, or where the healing needs to take place. So here it is, I'm like, I'm going outside, I'm gonna dance in front of the moon. And what really happened was I ended up sitting there crying and grieving over something that I didn't even know was was limiting me. And the relief that I got behind that, I'm so grateful for because I had to grieve a past relationship and I didn't know that it was hindering me in my current. And I was freed from that by using psychedelics and having my own little I'm gonna dance in front of the moon ceremony. It's like, nope, that's not what we're doing. We're gonna get some healing.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Yes. I think psychedelics have got that wonderful way of turning on the light in the dark room and showing us what are the skeletons still hanging around that we had no idea where there. It's certainly been my experience. And as much as it's important to set intentions before any ceremonial setting, it's what in my experience is more important is the ability to let go and to receive what I am meant to receive that day and not be too attached to what is going to happen. And it's very rarely do I get what I want. I most often get what I need. And it was not necessarily the intention, and that's why it's so important to keep the intention as broad as possible. And I think uh journeys of healing is is probably the broadest one that one can have. But it's it's it's an interesting uh experience. And how do you what's your integration practice afterwards? How do you how do you manage when you come out of something like what you've just described, your moon ceremony, and you you you find out the that what's was blocking was a grief from a previous relationship, how do you integrate that in your in your life?

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Well, one of the things that I first like to do is to get it on paper. Now, I am not by any means uh or or I don't hold writing as like my my go-to favorite, but with something that is so powerful, I do. I put it on paper and and then I like to communicate. So I'm more verbal. So I love to talk about it and and break it apart, break it down with other people. So when it comes to the integration of that ceremony, really for me revolved in the reflection and taking the time to, I had to take time to nurse that grieving part of myself and what was bought up. So, really, that's what it looked like for me. It was just taking the time to sit with myself and to continue to process that healing and to love on the part of myself that was hurting. I will also say what was really helpful was because it was eye-opening to me, it opened my eyes to others. So I was able to now have conversations with my friends and say, hey, that looks like grief, which was also in helping heal them. That in turn helped further heal me as I solidified what I had been going through. So that's what, overall, that's what my integration practices look like. It looks like sitting with myself, taking what was learned, and then just continuing to love on whatever parts needed. That for me, I think that's what this medicine, this whole journey of recovery and including the medicine is just truly teaching me, taking me, excuse me, the deeper depths of love. Like you just mentioned, about it, it's cutting the light on. That's it. I'm cutting the light on to see the places that need healing, that need love, and it's showing me how to do that.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

Yeah, I I think psychedelic uh experiences work very well with IFS, internal family system, and and reconciling all the parts. That that's what Carl Jong talked about, the uh a journey of individuation. And I think there are some parts of ourselves that we have buried so deep that only psychedelic assisted therapy or psychedelic journeys can uncover those parts. And it's only by uh making peace with them, accepting those parts that we can become really truly whole. It's not always pretty. My life ceremony certainly wasn't. And I got to to see parts of me that I simply not proud of. And uh it's a conversation with my therapist and my sponsor said you don't have to put a judgment on it. Quite the opposite. It's stay judgment free and reconcile. This is this is what that that journey is about, to thy own self be true. Um that's uh that's really the beauty of it. And I think you can go through years or decades of therapy and stay blissfully unaware of those parts. Yeah, wholeheartedly. Now let's let's go back briefly on your journey of recovery, how it started. You said your first fellowship was A. Would you uh would you like to uh tell us a bit more about this?

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, immediately I smile because my oh man, my first sponsor, she was a doozy. And she said that uh she said that she would go to all the A's, including AAA, if it would save her ass. So I went to all the fellowships when I started. I started primarily in uh the substance abuse fellowships. Year one and two were primarily A-A-N-A-C-A. That was it. And then um I started getting into relationships, so that's how I found out, you know. Now we gotta start going to Al-Anon. And so I did Al-Anon and uh Naranon, and I touched Coda in year three, but Coda is codependence anonymous. And I remember going to the meetings and reading everything, and I'm like, yeah, this is me. And uh their requirement, their only requirement for membership is a desire for healthy and loving relationships. And um, it just so happened I got in a relationship and I was like, oh, it worked, and I left. Lo and behold, that relationship sent me back. And uh, so I think up until year five and year six was CODA. Year seven is where I was introduced to ACA, adult children of alcoholics and dysfunctional families. So that was seven, eight, and nine. And then year 10, I got PIR. And uh here we are going into year 11.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Right. And um, so what what was your rock bottom? What took you, what what made you push the door of AA, N A, and C A initially? Um, do you want to give us a bit of background of how you qualify for being in PIR?

SPEAKER_02 17:14

So I came into the fellowships primarily, of course, because I was using drugs. So it had gotten to a place for me where I was using on a daily basis. Of course, it started out as fun. I came into recovery because it had gotten bad. Like I really didn't think that I had a problem, problem. Like I didn't think I had an I didn't think I was an addict. I didn't even know what an addict was. I just knew that I couldn't stop using cocaine. So I had a I was working at this great company, it was my favorite job. I was an employment specialist. I just helped people find work. I love connecting people to resources. And and so I was living a double life where I was this employment specialist by day and I was a pool shark at night. So I was at the night lounges, shooting pool, doing cocaine, drinking. And eventually those worlds collided. Like I'm on my lunch break, I'm going to try and get what I need, then I'm coming back. And and finally there was a day where I don't know, I think it I think I hadn't been asleep in like a week. I'm no longer taking baths. Like I'm I'm doing the spray and go bath, still showing up at work, um, but it's just you know, put on perfume and out the door, use mouthwash, I'm not brushing my teeth, not doing any of that. And um, I just remember being at work and I was just like, this has gotta stop. Something's wrong, you know? And I go to look for like an we call it an EAP program, an employee assistant program with my job because I want to now try and find help. And my boss walks in and she's like, What's wrong? And I'm like, I think I need help. And so she tells me, Well, maybe you need to go to meetings. And of course I agree right away. After about three days, I'm like, I don't think I need to sit in a circle with people and like share my name. I don't think I need that. Eventually she fired me. That's exactly what happened. She Yeah, it worked out well. So you know, but I remember I uh started Googling like needing assistance with cocaine, and I found Cocaine Anonymous website and they had 18 questions that you could ask yourself to see, maybe if you had a problem and self-diagnosis, and I remember I said yes, 17 questions. But one, one question, I I was like, no, and the question was something like, Do you crawl around on the floor looking for white substances or something? And I was like, No, I don't do that. So of course I couldn't be an addict, like I was not an addict, and um it was it was years later that I was sitting in a CA meeting, and I remember thinking, oh, the reason why I never crawled on the floor was because I kept my cocaine on the dresser. Do I know what deodorant tastes like? Yes. So I am certifiably, you know, there was there was a a time in recovery where I was going to different meetings and I didn't know should I say I'm an addict, should I say I'm an alcoholic, which one do I say, you know, and I was getting it confused because I was going to so many meetings. And um, what I what I did get to a place, I would just start simply saying, My name is Kinesha and I belong here because I recognized it didn't matter what substance I used. Because of my behavior, either I had already done it or I was quite capable of doing it. And so no matter what room I went into, I belonged there. So um from there, I would love to say that, you know, um what they call the white chip wonder that I picked up one white chip and that was it for me. That's not that's not my story at all. I think the first the first time I picked up a chip, like I drank immediately after. And then I started doing, you know, it started going south after a while. I think I put together like six months, and then I just wanted to be normal. Like I couldn't embrace that I would have to give up this big major part of my life that I thought was so major. Um, and I went back out for like eight months to this date. I truly don't remember. Remember the last date that I used. What I remember is that when I was ready to come back, I had a sponsor who she had already let me go the first time. And so now this second time, she was like, if I want her to be my sponsor again, I had to write her a letter. Why? Why did I want what she had? Why did I want her to be my sponsor? And so my recovery date is the date that I wrote that letter, the date that I decided that I was gonna do the work. So it might when hmm. And just moving a little forward, when I got into PIR and I had the struggles with am I still, am I still sober? Am I still in recovery? How does that, how does that work? How does my sobriety date now look like? What does that mean? I found such peace and I was so grateful that my recovery date is truly the day I decided to do the work. And that as long as I am doing the work, I keep my date. That's my that's my story.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Yes, I and going back onto you know, my name is Kanesha and I belong here, is is what one of the things I I love about PIR is I'm a person in recovery. All the aspects of me are in recovery. And like you, I belong in, I I used to belong to many fellowships. Um I probably qualify for all the A's except maybe GA. And I went to GA because I'm a trader and they want, you know, in rehab, they said, Oh, that's not a job for you, you should go to Gamblers Anonymous, and that's probably the only one I don't belong in. But um what I love about PIR is that it's people from all 12-step fellowship and beyond. And and I have discovered some new A's I belong in through PIR by listening to someone talking about being an over-eater anonymous. I was like, food fellowship, I have never knocked on that door. And this I would have never never come across it in AA or NA. And we we are recovering from addictions, substance and behavior. And when you started the uh the interview, you were talking about the fact that there is substance and behavior. And I think when there's so many codependency and co-diagnosis, and that that's something that we address in in PIR. There are no outside issues. Uh, is that something that you you felt you were more at ease talking about mental health um in in PIR?

SPEAKER_02 24:41

100%. Um, that's something that I love about PIR as well, is within PIR, I think that PIR truly embodies unity and inclusiveness. There are no conversations that cannot be had in PIR. I love that PIR allows each person to determine their own version of recovery. So it was great for me to come in and like you said, hear about these other fellowships. I heard about um under-earners anonymous and emotions anonymous, which is, I mean, when I think about being in AA and they and we talked about how the using was but a symptom and that there was a greater cause and condition. Well, I mean, I used to, I mean, I would use because I felt some type of way. So I needed to look at it. So it was amazing to come here and and be able to just truly be my, like I said, be myself to talk about, oh man, to have conversations on what was powerlessness and what did that really mean. And, you know, it was in PIR that I heard people expressing they didn't believe they were an addict. And I got a chance to take a look at that and determine well, where where do I fall within that? What did I believe? And it allowed me to expand my own version of recovery. And what I love about PIR is because I was able to expand, I don't get to look at someone else and say that they're limited. In PIR, we all fit. So today, inside and outside of PIR, I am a person in recovery. I no longer attach myself to saying an alcoholic or that I'm an addict. But that's where I've landed in this day, and I still have colleagues and and and friends in PIR that can call themselves an addict. And that's perfectly fine because we're still here together. And I think that's that's that's the beautiful beauty of PIR that every person can be where they are and share wholly where they are without judgment.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Yeah, what well, another thing that I love is that you have in the same meeting sitting side by side, someone recovering from marijuana addiction coming from MA, alongside someone who used marijuana as a plant medicine. And they completely respect each other and accept that what is a medicine for someone can be considered a drug for someone else without any judgment. I mean, there's no other fellowship I can think of where that would be a possibility. And uh I agree with you. And talking of this, do you do you still go to other fellowship? What's your link with with your previous fellowship?

SPEAKER_02 27:47

I attend there, I have limited the meetings that I go outside of PIR. I have a I still have a home group, my CA home group. Um I love them. I love them as people, and so I'll still go to that. I have found a great group in AA that it's a book group on Drop the Rock, so it focuses primarily on characteristics, traits, behaviors, because that's where I am today as an individual. For me, I no longer seek to focus on the problem. This is now about my recovery. How do I become a better individual in my mind, body, and spirit? So, yeah. So at this time, I love when um when I'm in a PIR meeting and they say, Can you state what your primary fellowship is? Because PIR is my primary fellowship. So that's what I love to say now. So I do about two meetings a week that are outside of the fellowship and inside PIR. I think I do about four. Four meetings a week in PIR.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Yeah, that that's that's my story too. I uh the the reason why I I've I've stopped going to AA meetings is I can't practice my first spiritual principle, which is honesty. I can't share honestly. And therefore, I uh I don't want to curate what I'm saying. And so, yeah, you know, I do I do have a group next to my home and I go there for fellowship more than I go for the actual meeting. But that that's interesting. That uh I think some of our some of our members are still very close to their fellowship, and it's always interesting for our listeners to uh find out how we cope when we go back to our fellowship of origin. How do you presumably you don't talk about psychedelics with them?

SPEAKER_02 29:42

No, I would not bring up psychedelics um only out of respect for the fellowship. You know, you know, I've been in, even let's just say if we weren't talking about the psychedelics, um, I don't go into like the stricter AA rooms saying I'm an addict. Even though I understand that's my truth, out of respect for the room and the singleness of their purpose, then I don't speak on that. Um I also, the place that I've come to now, I won't talk about psychedelics in the fellowship unless it's asked of me. Now, I will not deny my truth. Um, however, if I the way that I plan on sharing is if I hear someone mention it, I'll have conversations after the meeting. Because if the goal of that that meeting, if they have a singleness of purpose again, then I will abide by that. It has brought up within me, well, am I hiding my truth? You know, am I being a liar? You know, even even it's come up around, man, me collecting a coin. Yeah, my time. This is my anniversary month. Do I collect a coin? How do I share my story now in my month? And um, I will tell you at first I wasn't going to, but I had a lady come up to me after the after you know, we went through this with my home group, and uh, she said, You are a member when you say you are. And am I a member of that group? Yes, I am now. Am I in recovery practicing recovery? Yes. Have I earned my medallion? Yes, and so when I tell my story, I will say that I will say, I believe what I'll say is that I've practiced with an outside issue that saved my life. So it will be something vague. But you know, I am. I'm going to be very prayerful about how I how I come across because I can say that I was fully in recovery and I got to a low place where there was nothing that I had been taught um within those fellowships that worked. And it was only psychedelics that helped me. So I must in some way pay homage to that. I must. It's a part of my story. So in a vague way, I will probably just say something like an outside issue.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Yeah, I I I used I used to use the alternative therapy, which is which is not a lie, it's an alternative therapy. I liked it. Yeah, that's um that closes the topic without lying. But it's a fine line, it really is. And I I was invited once to do a lead in AA, and I talked about my expedition in the Amazon, and the shamanic ritual was ayahuasca. And it's interesting because half of the room was fascinated, the other half closed down. And uh interestingly, I was never asked to do a chair again. But this was my truth, and I didn't do it to provoke, but just to be truthful. So it's uh yeah, it's it's a tight rope, that one.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

I like alternative therapy because that's what it is. It is. I I do believe it's an alternative. It's really not even alternative, it's just that in regards to this this 12-step model that we use, it's an alternative to that. But for me, I truly believe that this is plant medicine, that this was our primary method of healing. The original. This is this was the original healing method. And so I like I like the use of alternative therapy because I think it would land better with some, but I do see it as a primary yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

This medicine has been practiced for thousands of years. They've uh dug up some some bodies. Um 15,000 years ago, they were using psilocybin in rituals and uh healing rituals. Uh so we we are we are not discovering a a new revolutionary way, we're just relearning the way of our ancestors. It's it's beautiful. We are the lucky ones. Uh and really this uh this podcast is is really that to to inform um people out there who are still struggling and who started like you um by doing more service. And uh people, some people are stuck in their recovery 15, 20 years and wondering what have they done wrong, what is missing, and maybe, just maybe, that could be an inspiration for them and and a path to a different recovery.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

I agree with you. I think one of the biggest shocks for me was in coming into PIR and learning more about history of AA and learning more about Bill Wilson. I knew that he had struggled with depression. I knew that he had struggled with smoking cigarettes, there was talks of infidelity, there was all of this. What I did not know was that he had used LSD. And I remember being floored by that, that he had sought this alternative therapy. And yet in our fellowship, we were discussing abstinence only. And what it helped me see, you know, it truly just made me realize that I was not alone. You know, I thought something was wrong with me because the fellowship wasn't working for me. I thought that, I thought that there was something wrong with me. And I think that had I known that one of the founders needed to seek outside help, I would not have carried as much shame initially. I would not have carried as much shame. And I'd I have had to do some work on that. Well, not on my personal shame, but on my feelings towards the fellowship and learning that that Bill Wilson had used LSD because I have watched people die in this fellowship. I have watched people die in AA and in NA, whether it was because they were told they couldn't use their their their prescribed medicine or because they thought they couldn't use an alternative. And that's just that was really saddening. I've had to realize that in some ways it's just the people and fear and and holding on to this this belief that um that it could cause harm. And and it very well may, but I think that um we have to, at this point now, have the option there or have the knowledge there.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Yes, absolut I absolutely. And and I think the the concept of open-mindedness that is drummed in in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous is incredibly important. They in the spiritual um the appendix to spiritual experience, they talk, you know, the the the famous sentence of Herbert Spencer. Prior to investigation. Right. Is this this is a paradox? It's written in the big book, yet if you start mentioning exploring other parts of recovery, you're immediately shut down and told that no mind-altering substance will get you into recovery. Um, and that that's certainly been my my experience when I started to mention to my AA sponsor I wanted to explore microdosing. She closed she shut me down and uh sacked me, saying it I wouldn't be able to continue to sponsor you. Like you will not be sober. There was a true lack of open-mindedness there. But I I heard in one of my few PI first few PIR meetings, someone said about individuals having that kind of reaction. I understand their fears. And that really helped me find peace with my ex-sponsor, with the people who were judging. Because that's a fear-based. And there is a lot of fear, you know, in those 12-step fellowship. If you drink again, you will die, if you use again, you will die. Um and I I don't I don't think fear in any way, shape, or form is something I want to introduce in my life again. You know, after I've done several steps four and my list of fear inventory, fear is something I want to get rid of. I don't want fears in my life. And that's that's that's a that's a tool that is being too frequently used and keeping people away from a potential solution. And that's a great shame.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Um, I have a prayer on my wall at work that says, may my decisions be on my hopes and not my fears. I think that my a lot of my recovery, right, has been fear-based. I don't go to certain places because, you know, what's the saying? Like, if you keep going to the barbershop, eventually you'll get a haircut, you know? So I don't, I don't go to this store. I don't, I don't hang out with these people. And it's a very limiting life in some ways. And what I have looked at instead is to simply say, there are certain things I don't do, not out of fear, but because I love myself. So, no, I love, I love myself too much to just do cocaine. Like, it does, what is that gonna do for me? I can have a cup of coffee if I want to stay up. I don't have to put powder up my nose. Like, what do I, loving myself, look like going to a dope hole that can make me lose my job, my home? I love my life today. So I want to now take action in my life based on love and not fear.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Amen. And uh going to your life today, what can you tell us? Something that you're still coming to terms with, a challenge and or a struggle? Because we we've talked about how wonderful psychedelics have been in your recovery, how it's helped you through your depression. Are they things that you feel psychedelics could help you again? Um, or an integration that you you you feel is needed where you are at today?

SPEAKER_02 40:22

With where I am now, I am in a place of transitioning, actually, in terms of career. And I was recently engaged. Congratulations. Thank you. I found out I've got fears on commitment. Go figure. So I actually do plan on, I'm gonna begin microdosing again, with the intent of going within myself to take a deeper look at this the fears of the commitment and uh the discovery of uh of what it is that I truly want to do. So to become more authentic and to tap in more into myself. So that's what my goals are in these upcoming months. Um, but you know, something that you mentioned that brought up for me, if there is one thing that I desire now, I did recognize that as I have shifted more into PIR, there has been more of a need for fellowship and local fellowship. And however, even with that thought, what has now occurred is it may be time to start a meeting. And so, yeah, so I've got, and again, just through the voice of the psychedelics and the mushrooms, that little voice that says, you can do it if you want to. You can do it. So I now I do crave to have my PIR family around me. And one of the best things to do is to build that. So that's what's that's what's going on in my world now when it comes to psychedelics.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

Very best of luck with this. Um we we we did we did start a meeting here in London, and uh we started off once a month, then twice a month, and now it's weekly, and as of January, we'll have a women's meeting as well on top of the mixed meeting. And it's yeah, it it it's amazing to find your your people and be able to give them a hug and go for a pizza afterwards. That it adds it adds to the fellowship. I think it w it's wonderful that we have so many meetings on Zoom and pretty much round the clock because we're now completely global. But um, yeah, it would be awesome if you start a uh a meeting where you are. That's uh would be a great achievement, um, a great challenge. Well yeah, good luck with that. Um thank you very much, Kanisha. We're coming to the end of our broadcast today. Is there anything else that you wanted to add that maybe you wish I'd asked you or a closing remark?

SPEAKER_02 43:10

This was a wonderful interview. I told, I was telling my friends that I had thought about this, and that as I get older and as I truly learn to live my life today, I want to live a life that I leave this earth with as few regrets as possible. And I knew that if I did not do this, I would have regretted it. To be a voice, to be a woman's voice, to be a black African American voice here in PIR, to have come from AA to get a chance to stand in my truth was not something that I would have wanted to miss. And so if there was anything that I would share or say with anyone, would be just that to stand in your truth. You may have to stand quietly. We don't want to put targets on our back. You might have to stand quietly. Um, but PIR is here to allow you to stand in your truth, and that we welcome you. So I'll tell you in advance, welcome home again.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

Thank you very much, Kanesha. Beautifully said. So thanks again for your time, your voice, your story. Um, and uh thank you all for listening and see you around soon.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Psychedelics in recovery is a peer led fellowship guided by anonymity, non endorsement, and mutual respect. Thank you for listening and for placing principles before personalities.